Adam Torres and Geoff Thatcher discuss experience design.
Subscribe: iTunes / Spotify
Apply to be a guest on our podcast here
Show Notes:
The Experience Model is used by designers to create attractions. In this episode, Adam Torres and Geoff Thatcher, Founder & Chief Creative Officer at Creative Principals & Author of The CEO’s Time Machine, explore creating design for theme parks and Geoff’s book, The CEO’s Time Machine.
About Geoff Thatcher
An experienced creative director who excels at leading projects from concept to reality. These projects are most often about creating world-class experiences in corporate visitor centers, executive briefing centers, museums, theme parks and live events.
Great experiences are distinguished by great story telling. Whether it’s interviewing executives about the future of health care in America, walking the Fort Worth assembly line of the F-35 Lightning II or listening to a seventh generation Hawaiian play ukulele in her living room, it all begins with finding the story and translating it into memorable experiences.
His passion and experience in leadership development is ultimately about creating an environment where great work can get done together.
About Creative Principals
A CREATIVE FAMILY
Creative Principals is led by a creative family with a love for experiences. From theme parks and museums to brand experiences and visitor centers, we work hard to imagine and create the next great experience for clients around the world!
Full Unedited Transcript
Hey, I’d like to welcome you to another episode of Mission Matters. My name is Adam Torres, and if you’d like to apply to be a guest on the show, just head on over to missionmatters. com and click on Be Our Guest to apply. All right, so today’s guest is Jeff Thatcher, and he’s founder and chief creative officer over at Creative Principles and also author of The CEO’s Time Machine.
Jeff, welcome to the show. Welcome. Hey, thanks for having me. All right, Jeff. So lots to talk about today. Of course, I want to get further into what you’re doing over at Creative Principles and also learn more about the experience model and how it’s used by designers to create attractions. But just to get us kicked off, we’ll start this episode the way that we start them all with what we like to call our mission matters minute.
So, Jeff, at Mission Matters, our aim and our goal is to amplify stories for entrepreneurs, executives, and experts. That’s our mission. Jeff, what mission matters to you? Creative leadership more than anything else. We are a design firm, if you will, or an experienced design firm that works with theme parks and museums , and brands on all types of experiences, whether it’s a theme park attraction or a museum exhibit or a brand experience.
Love creativity. That’s what we do. We come up with big ideas, but I think a lot of times when people think about creativity, they forget that without leadership, the big ideas really are quite worthless. You have to combine Creativity with persuasion, with communication, with leadership skills. You have to be able to inspire a shared vision, as Kouzes and Posner said in their book, Leadership Challenge, you have to have leadership combined with that creativity if you want to get anything done.
Wonderful. Love having mission based individuals in the line to share why they do what they do, how they do it, and what we can all learn from that so we grow together. So this is good stuff. I guess, Jeff, just to get us kicked off here, , tell us more about your creative journey?
How’d all this start for you? It started as a 14 year old cleanup boy at an amusement park swimming pool. And that was the actual title of my job was cleanup boy. Started at the top. Got it. Go ahead. I started at the top, right? No, no. I started at the very, very, very, very, very, very bottom literally cleaning, cleaning the pool.
The locker rooms at an old 1920s million gallon swimming pool that no longer exists. It’s been replaced by a water park and slides and all the fancy stuff they have now. But this is one of those classic, , 1920s, 1930s amusement park swimming pools. And I was the cleanup boy. I cleaned the locker rooms.
I cleaned the deck. I cleaned the water. I cleaned, you know, I mean, you know the scene from Caddy? The caddy ? I got it, I got it. So , if you’re too young to know that scene, you just go, go Google it, , go look it up. Mm-Hmm. , go watch it. So yes, we did have to occasionally retract items from the swimming pool that were not clean.
Yeah. So . And then, , after two years as a cleanup, I snow star when I was 14 then I was a lifeguard. And then I went from a lifeguard to being a train engineer on a steam engine that went around the amusement park and there was zoo animals and, you know, historic villages. And then I was a manager in the rides department.
And then I shifted from rides to entertainment. I was a stage manager. And then I was a senior. Stuntman DJ, then, you know, continue to work as a stage manager in entertainment. And then I graduated from college in journalism and, you know, the amusement park where I worked Lagoon Amusement Park, if you’ve been in Farmington, Utah, a great, great park, over a million people a year family owned.
And you know, they offered me a full time salary position, but I turned them down because I wanted to go pursue my, degree, , my journalism major. So I got a job at a newspaper and absolutely hated it. I hated it. I found out quickly with all due respect to those in this field that most journalists are really unhappy, miserable people and I was used to working with people that were happy.
That were in the business of making people happy and I mean, our motto at Lagoon was have fun and I wanted to have fun at work and I missed it. And so long story short, I got a lucky break and I got a job as a creative writer for a firm. In Cincinnati, Ohio that designed theme parks and museums and brand experiences and started our own firm in 2017.
So, it was seven years ago. And just love it. I love experiences. I love you know, coming up with big ideas. I love working with our clients around the world. And it’s, it’s a lot of fun. Talk to me about the amusement park and theme park industry in general. Rarely I have somebody on the line who that’s their business.
So I’m interested in like, I mean, we’re post pandemic, you know, people are coming back. There’s lines all over the place. Like what’s industry in the industry. Give us a, give us kind of a market update, if you will. Well, it’s a great industry. And I like to say that, you know what, if you want to have fun and you want to go into this industry, you can work, you can be anything.
I once challenged a group of young employees at an amusement park. I was giving them a, like a speech on the industry and the future in the industry. I’m like, name one career that’s not in this industry. And they started like going, you know, they were like you know, Police. I’m like, are you kidding me?
No, every theme park has police, you know, and they were like, they were, they were like zookeeper. I’m like, wait a second. Your theme park has a zoo. What do you mean zookeeper? Of course, you can be a zookeeper at a theme park, you know, and somebody said a rocket engineer. I said, nope. Rocket engineer they just hired , the retired imagineer from, Disney , to work on turning their, you know, space park and their experience of flying you up into the atmosphere as an attraction.
Literally, there is not one job. It’s not in this industry. You want to be an engineer? You can go into the theme park business and design roller coasters. You want to be a graphic designer? You want to be a performer? You want to be an accountant? You want to be, it does not matter. There, this industry, this theme park industry of fun, in the business of helping people experience, really is, You can be anyone, you can have any interest, you can have any aptitude.
And what’s great about it is there’s a lot of people like me who have been in this industry for like 40 years, because we started when we were teenagers and you know, it’s just a great industry and everything park needs someone that’s a specialist , in one specific thing. And so that’s what I love about it.
And from a creative perspective, cause you started me on this. So I’m going to keep talking and talking and talking. But I love the fact that. What we do, the very best attractions, the very best experiences, the very best exhibits, all go back to two things. First, they tell great stories. You immerse someone in a very powerful story.
And second, the very best of those attractions follow a very simple model. And it’s a model that really is kind of based on a hero’s journey and our own psyche , and history. And we call it the experience model,, what’s your favorite theme park ride like ever? I liked the minions.
I liked the minion ride. It’s still fun to me. I still like that one. It’s funny. Oh, you’re a lot younger than me, right? Yeah, or if we go further back, I mean, Cedar Point, I went to Cedar Point growing up. Oh, dude, Cedar Point, man. Yeah, Cedar Point’s epic. That was fun. The Gemini, that wasn’t the largest wooden roller coaster for a long time.
Who knows nowadays? But Gemini or something else where the roller coasters would race each other. No, I remember , that was our big park. I’m from Michigan, so I remember going there pretty often. Sandusky, Ohio. Cedar Point is a great, great theme park. I’ve been there many times. We raised our kids in Ohio, in Mason, Ohio, outside of Cincinnati, right next to Kings Island.
So, of course, we were always in the Kings Island versus Cedar Point, you know. Which is better? Which coaster is better? Both parks are great. But let’s go back to the minions. All right. The minions, like many other themed attractions follows a very simple model.
First, what do they have to do? Well, they have to attract your attention, have to draw you in. So they have this big sign, this big graphic out front, this, you know, a lot of attention, like let you know, like, Hey, This is minions come here. It draws you in. So the first step of the experience model is to attract you.
Then once that happens, they need to build trust, right? That trust usually in the best experiences and attractions and exhibits happens in the queue. It happens as you start stepping, taking the first steps into an experience. So for example, same park, right? The Minions is at Universal Studios. , let’s go over to the Hogwarts castle, the Harry Potter, and you know, the forbidden journey ride.
Right. I remember being in that ride when our oldest daughter Zoe, who’s a designer and illustrator now at Creative Principles for us, when she was 14 years old, huge fan of the books, right? We’re standing in that queue in the castle. You’ve been there, right? The Harry Potter. Yeah. So we’re staying in that castle.
She turns to me and she says, dad, this is legit. It’s legit. That’s, that’s the second step of that experience model is trust. You got to build trust with someone. Then of course, and it happens at Minions, you step into that pre show and the Minions come out and what do they do? They tell you what’s going to happen.
They give you information. They give you the information that you need to move forward in the journey. So the first step of the experience model. Attract. The second step, build trust. Then third, once you’ve done that, once you’ve got their attention, once you’ve built their trust, then you give them the information they need to move forward in the journey.
The fourth step, then, is you ride the ride. You know, it’s why you’re here. You internalize the story. It’s the whole purpose, it’s Harry Potter, it’s to ride the broom, right? Minions, I’ve, sorry, it’s been a long time since I’ve been on Minions because my kids are a bit older. It’s a simulator and you go in there and you ride the experience.
It’s why you’re there. You internalize the story and all the best attractions are really about immersing you in that story. And all the best museum exhibits, same thing, are about immersing you in that story. And then finally what happens? Well you want to challenge people to do something. Now, typically at a theme park, that’s to buy something, right?
You exit Minions, and you’re right going through retail, and they have all those little Minions stuffed animals, and plush, and T shirts, and everything else, and they want you to buy it. Now, that’s the whole exit through retail, which is very common in theme parks. But the very best attractions, right?
Combine that retail with an experience, and so what it’s really about, Is inviting you to become part of the story. So, for example, go back to the Harry Potter, the same, you know, Minions , the same Universal Studios. , you’re standing there after exiting the castle and you’re in the retail store.
And you’re standing there looking at the jerseys, the Quidditch jerseys. And you’re like, okay, which one of us , is Gryffindor? It’s my wife and my son, yeah. Which one of us is Ravenclaw? That’s our son, Joel. Which one’s Hufflepuff? That’s Zoe. And which one is Slytherin? Unfortunately, that would be me.
We become part of the story. The very best exit experiences do more than just hawkwares and sell you stuff. The very best of those experiences actually challenge you to act, to do something. I mean, like, you know, the Holocaust Memorial in DC, there couldn’t be a more serious experience in the world.
Right? And same thing, right? Attract , the architecture of that museum draws you in, in this aesthetic that like is very powerful, industrial, concentration camp aesthetic. It’s very haunting, right? And then, That’s the first then trust while they tell you the history of anti Semitism and the rise of Nazism and then inform all these little small little videos and theaters you step into as you begin your journey through Holocaust Memorial in DC really helped to establish the fact that, , this is the information you need to move forward in the journey, but it isn’t until if you’ve been there, it isn’t until you cross over a bridge and go downstairs Where they immerse you in the tragic scale of the Holocaust, you walk past thousands of shoes and you’re surrounded by family pictures of people who were killed.
And you’re immersed in that story. And then, they don’t want to sell you stuff. No, there’s not a retail store as you exit, there’s a rotunda with an eternal flame. Because what? They want you to act, they want you to resolve that something like that will never happen. Again, that’s the experience model and you can trace that experience model back in time, back through history, part of the hero’s journey.
It’s built into our psyche that we want to have, we want someone to get our attention. Then we want to build trust with them. Then we want to give them information so they can move forward. Then internalize that story and then get them to do something. I want to jump around a bit here. I also noticed that you have a book and for my longterm listeners, they know I love promoting authors and books.
So the CEO’s time machine, did that come about? I was on a flight to Saudi Arabia, and I was talking to a colleague from a company called the History Factory. Bruce CEO of the History Factory, founder of the company. And we were talking about history. And as I was bored on this flight, I got this idea that wouldn’t it be interesting if you had a time machine as a leader, as a CEO?
And you could go back in time and talk to people and learn, right? Go back to the Wright brothers and say, , how come you didn’t dominate this market, right? And then I’m like, okay, and it wouldn’t be cool if you could travel in the future and see the future. . And then, the thought that came to me is, even if you could travel back in time, and even if you could travel back to the future, you still have to, in the present day, make a decision.
And that’s the hard part. Because actually, if you just go read books, you can find out what the Wright Brothers had to say about, you know, Their lawsuits and why they didn’t dominate the industry and you can actually, in my opinion, travel to the future simply by talking to people that are younger than you because guess what, I mean, I’m 57.
I’m going to be probably dead in 30 years, but I can go talk to a 20 year old or a 15 year old and tap in to the future simply by talking to someone younger than me. But the story itself is about a Elon Musk type of CEO who has a. A secret lair and everybody thinks he has a time machine, but they don’t know for sure.
And the book is about how this CEO is, is turning over the reins of his company to his protege, his chief marketing officer, and she’s going to be the new CEO. And it’s about introducing her to his time machine. And that’s what the book is about. It’s a short story. It’s illustrated and it, the book follows the same experience model.
We just talked about and what was really fun about the book is I had written it and it was just sitting in my computer for like 2 years and the pandemic hit and I turned to my daughter Zoe. I said, we’re not going to sit around for these 3 weeks to slow the curve. Who knew? Right? Right. Let’s not sit around.
I said, let’s do something crazy. Cause we knew our work was going to slow. And so we decided , we got it, I mean, it was written, but we got it edited, proofed. She did 53 illustrations designed and published in five weeks on Amazon. Hmm. Yeah, you two are busy. It was fun. What, what do you hope the readers get out of reading this story?
Like, what do you hope they get out of it? More than anything, what I hope they get out of it is that it is very, very important to be decisive. You know, we tell a story in the book about Lockheed Martin’s skunkworks. And when the founder of Skunk Works, you know, this is the place that invented the U 2 airplane and stealth and all these amazing things.
And who knows what they’re inventing today, right? For sure. And the founder of Skunk Works was turning over the company to Ben Rich. Right. And Ben Rich was basically the father of stealth. Right. And, and it was interesting,, he was supposed to spend the founder of Skunkware was supposed to spend like several days or even a week with, , training and turning them over.
And he just said, I’m not gonna spend any time with you. All you need to know is just make a decision. Even if it’s a bad decision, just make a decision, just decide, just decide, make a decision. And I think that’s the mistake that most people make. Is they just are afraid and paralyzed and don’t make a decision.
I mean, one of the things that we preach in our agency and our firm is speed. We believe that the faster you work, the more creative you are. And we believe the reason that is, is because you’re being forced to make decisions quickly. And that refines and focuses your attention and allows you not to constantly second guess great ideas.
There are so many great ideas and people just cut them with a thousand cuts to death when they should be nurtured and loved , and promoted. So, you know what, you just have to move fast. I mean, people forget Disneyland was designed in a weekend. A weekend, you know what I mean? I mean, you know, and the whole, they built the thing in just over a year.
We can work fast, we just forget that we can’t work fast. We absolutely can work fast, and we should work fast, and we need to work fast. Bede fosters better creative. That’s great. Well, Jeff .
I think that’s a good way to end it. If somebody’s listening to this or watching this, and if they want to follow up to learn to follow your journey, to grab the book, to learn more about your company, I mean, how do they do that? Well, probably the easiest way is just, you know, I have a very, I’m a Jeff with a G, G E O F F Jeff Badger.
So just. Google Jeff Thatcher, you can find me on Instagram, find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on the website at creativeprinciples. com you know that’s probably the easiest way to, to find us. Fantastic. And the book , is pretty, , I just put in Jeff Thatcher and or you could put in the CEO’s Time Machine on Amazon and that comes right up and I see there’s a hardcover there and there’s also a Kindle version as well for everybody listening.
And I’ll also put a. The links to the book in the in the show notes. So you could just click on the link and pick up a copy, but it’s beautiful. And you said, and as you mentioned, your daughter Zoe did the illustration. So good job there. I’m looking at it on Amazon right now. Really cool stuff.
So speaking of the audience, if this is your first time with mission matters and you haven’t done it yet, this is a daily show each and every day. We’re bringing on new business owners, entrepreneurs, and executives, and we don’t want you to miss a thing. So hit that subscribe button so that you get the notification and you know, what’s coming.
Coming on tomorrow. So good stuff there. And Jeff thanks again so much for coming on the show. It’s been a pleasure. Hey, thank you. Really appreciate it.