Adam Torres and Hillary Crawford discuss “Bye Bye Barry” autobiography.
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Show Notes:
New book alert! In this episode, Adam Torres interviews Mark E. McCormick, Co Author of Bye Bye Barry. Explore the “Bye Bye Barry” book and documentary.
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About Mark E. McCormick
Mark is a New York Times best-selling author with 20 years of journalism experience as a reporter, editor and columnist. He serves as a trustee at The University of Kansas’ school of journalism and he;s been a Professional in Residence at the University of Oklahoma.
Mark was featured in the beat reporting chapter of the journalism textbook, “Writing and Reporting News, A Coaching Method.” He’s won more than 20 industry and community awards including five Gold Medals from the Kansas City Press Club.
Mark was also featured in NFL Films’ “Barry Sanders: A Football Life,” and also featured in ‘Roots and Branches: Preserving the Legacy of Gordon Parks’ a documentary about WSU’s quest to acquire the collected works of the trailblazing photographer, writer, filmmaker and native Kansan. Most recently he was featured in the documentary on journalist and statesman William Allen White entitled, “William Allen White: What’s the Matter With Kansas?”
In 2015, Mark co-authored “African Americans of Wichita” with Arcadia publishing and in 2017, published “Some Were Paupers, Some Were Kings: Dispatches From Kansas” with Blue Cedar Press. That book was named Wichita State University’s 2020 Campus Read and taught in classes. He’s also a recent member of the Association of African American Museums’ board of directors where he served as communications committee chair.
Mark joined the Alpha Nu Boule chapter of Sigma Pi Phi in 2004 and in 2019 was named a BMe Vanguard Fellow. In 2020, he was appointed by Kansas Governor Laura Kelly to two commissions, the Kansas African American Affairs Commission, of which he serves as board chairman, and to the Commission on Racial Equality and Justice.
Full Unedited Transcript
Hey, I’d like to welcome you to another episode of Mission Matters. My name is Adam Torres, and if you’d like to be part of our community, head on over to MissionMatters. com and click on Community to Apply. All right. So today is a very special episode. I’ve been, man, I’ve been working on getting this interview for the last year.
I’ve been excited. I have Mark McCormick on the line. He is the co author of Bye Bye Barry, and he’s also responsible for working on and co authoring the initial. Version of the Barry Sanders autobiography as well. And so I’m just thrilled first off to have you on the show. And I want to say, Hey, Mark, welcome.
Thanks. Thanks for having me on. All right, Mark. So long, this conversation is a, is a long time overdue. We’re going to go of course, into current projects you’re working on and your current work. We’re going to also talk about the bye bye Barry book, the documentary for those that are out there living under a rock.
Barry Sanders is, is all over the media right now for the book and also the documentary going number one on Amazon. And actually their most as of to date their most viewed and streamed documentary of all time. So breaking records over here, but what do we expect from Barry, but breaking records but Mark, we’re going to start this interview the way that we start them all with what we like to call our mission matters minute.
So Mark, we at Mission Matters, we amplify stories for entrepreneurs, executives, and experts. That’s our mission. Mark, what mission matters to you? Well for most of my career, whether I was working at a newspaper, Or whether I was running a museum, which I’ve done, or whether I was working at a non profit like I am now, like the ACLU.
I’ve always been interested in trying to be a voice for people who did not have a voice. My Twitter handle says that I am a juror. in the court of last resort because when I was a columnist, people would try all manner of things to try and get themselves out of a difficult situation. And they ultimately end up calling me and say, Mark, what could you do?
And there were times where I could actually help. You know, there are times when you’re involved in journalism with journalism actually happens where you’re helping people. So what matters to me is fairness in our in our culture and to what degree all of us Are serving that culture because if you’re not you’re just a parasite Well great great having you on the show today mark And and i’m and i’m a big fan of individuals like yourself that are that are going that extra step And we’re going to talk of course about the non profit that you’re with right now as well but let’s go a little bit further back into your your career and either journalism or writing like like Where did all this come about?
Like how did all that start for you? It was interesting, you know, I originally really wanted to be a photographer. I was always interested in photography. We had lots of photographs in our, in our home. I actually have a photograph of someone in my maternal line. My mother’s great grandmother who was born a slave.
I have a picture of her. Wow. My, my family helped establish an all black town in Oklahoma. Foley, Oklahoma. So there was all this history. There were all these photographs, and I thought that was really the path that I might go. But you know, things happen. I ended up writing, and the real inspiration for my career was my sister, who was the high school journalist of the year in Wichita back in 1971.
And she won a scholarship to the William Allen White School of Journalism at the University of Kansas. And that’s where I ended up. But she really was my my inspiration. She was like a mom to me. She was a teenager when I was born. And she would write us letters. And one of the things that I remember fondly is I was sitting on the floor in my mother’s room.
My mother would read me those letters and child. I would say, I wish I could write like that someday. It, it did something to me and that feeling really never left. So even when I left daily journalism, I still tell people that I’m a, I’m a recovering journalist because if it’s in your system, you never really get it out of your system.
But she was really the inspiration. And I, you know, when I got to middle school, I was the editor of the newspaper, the yearbook. Same thing in high school. You know, got in a summer camp. And then, you know, really, the rest was history for me meeting people at the University of Kansas. And I really feel like I would have very little or be very little but for the experience of being able to go to the University of Kansas and have some of the professors there just throw their arms around me and really take care of me and help me and guide me.
I remain close to them to this day. Yeah. What would you tell the, let’s just say the, the next group of would be writers, journalists, entrepreneurs, creators, right? Mm-Hmm. . Like, what would you tell them and like with the benefit of hindsight in terms of like, how to enter the field or like how to pursue their dreams and their passions?
You know, the, the landscape is very different today. You know, I can remember. Thinking to myself, not only do I enjoy writing, but this seems like a pretty secure field. And then about the time that I got in it, about the 80s and the 90s, it started to contract. So it is very different. So the opportunities aren’t the same, but I think there are more.
I think where we are in terms of the digital, digital world, there are a lot of opportunities to, to write online, to write for online organizations. But the most important discipline is finding something to write about. almost daily if you can dailyism and then you do a lot of reading. That reading will help you get a sense for, you know, how a system, how a sentence should have rhythm.
Yeah. Well, a story, how, how to use words concisely. So that, you know, there’s not all this word inflation and people start skipping paragraphs and pretty soon they’ve put down what you’ve read. Those two things are really important, you know, getting the writing in and getting the reading in. And one of the things that really helped me was I took a break from writing at one point and started editing.
And it closed the circle. It closed the loop, the learning loop for me. And I felt like I took a big step forward editing other people’s work because it made me more critical of my own work. Hmm, that’s interesting. So speaking of writing and speaking of books I wanna, I wanna, so for everybody watching this, that maybe hasn’t been following the story.
So we recently re re released a, an expanded version of Barry Sanders autobiography. But Mark, he, he worked on not only this one, of course, but on the first version as well. So I want to take us back, maybe down or take you back down memory lane. I wasn’t there for that one. I’m there for this. One, but I want to take you down memory lane of maybe what it was like to work on that first project.
Like, like how did it all come about? Like, give us the story. Well very called, I think it was like in the mid to late nineties and said, you know, I’m I’m thinking about taking a vacation somewhere and would you like to go? I said, yeah, of course. And so we were on vacation and we were, you know, just sitting around talking.
And he just says at one point I’m thinking of. Hanging it up. I’m thinking of quitting and I was stunned because you know, this was a person who was doing incredibly well in the league and that’s understatement. But I got the sense that there was this weariness that was starting to to take over and that game is so dangerous.
Yeah, not fully focused. You could really get hurt and you can get hurt even if you are really focused. And it takes a lot of energy in the offseason. You know, you’re doing all this preparation, stretching. It’s a real it’s a real pull on you. And he’d gotten to the point where he was performing at Such a high level for so long.
It just kind of makes sense Now those of us who are fans and like to watch him run. We weren’t ready for that. But he announced then Yeah, I think i’m i’m ready to to hang it up and I told him that if that was the case would he be interested in in me writing about it? And I kind of forgot about it.
Yeah, and then he later gives me a call and said, you know, I think It’s time. It’s time. I’m ready to step down. i’m ready to retire and You know, I I could use a little help, you know with my letter so we went back and forth on the letter I I can’t take as much credit as has been offered me about that.
I just kind of helped with it but when you consider the era And I and the fact that I was at work and I I didn’t want to be on a phone and have people You know, in a newsroom, that’s like you’re behind enemy lines on that one, man. And I didn’t want to use email, you know, you had email and I didn’t want to use email because then the company would have it.
So. We I can’t remember which one of us came up with the idea of the fax, but we we gave Barry a name B Abernathy. I don’t know where I got that from, but that’s how we were faxing the letter back and forth unnoticed. Yeah. And then we, you know, we finally got the letter together and he sent it and then immediately stepped on a jet and flew off to England.
And when I seen that when I seen that the picture that was, that’s in this version of the book, and I think it might’ve been the first version too, of you and him, that’s what I was picturing. I was picking, like, I obviously I don’t I’m picturing when I think of myself in my own life, like that would have been like me and my buddy, I’m like, Hey, my, one of the friends that I would have had like that, my, his name’s.
Eric. So I’d have been calling Eric and I’d be like, Eric. All right. I think I’m done with this. And this is like, now we’re plotting, like, how are we going to do this? And now we got a code name. Now we gotta like, you know, a how are we going to communicate? How are they not going to like, like, how are we going to do this?
Right. And I, I. Think about that like relationship. And I think about how all that transpired and, and now you being, of course, that’s the first stage of it. And then now this next stage where you’re, you’re entrusted to help bring that book and tell that story to life. That’s a, that’s a lot of pressure. It was you know and it wasn’t, it wasn’t something that was easy to do.
At the time I was an editor for a team of reporters that covered, you know, crime and safety. That was the name of the team. We covered police in the courts and we kind of had a rule that, you know, if you’re, if you had a reporter at the scene of a fire or a standoff or whatever, the editor needed to stay.
until that situation had resolved. Wow. Yeah. And so we’ve been trying to shop the book about Barry and interestingly, we didn’t have a lot of takers. I had publishers tell me that they didn’t even think Barry was a hall of famer. Wow. And I was thinking obviously a long time ago. Yeah. I was like, you just don’t watch a lot of football.
So it was, we had a hard time selling it. But Barry has a genius agent. And JB Burns. Yeah. And he struck a deal with this with this company. And when we started counting back from when we wanted the book to be out, we wanted the book to be out around Thanksgiving of 2003. Yeah, when we started counting back.
I basically had two weeks to get the rest of the book written Wow, we had we had three or four chapters done one was about Nancy Barry’s sister to whom the book is dedicated a chapter about why he left and I think one other chapter But I had to do the rest in two weeks and in the publishing world They call it crashing a book because you’re driving so fast.
It’s you’re likely to crash right? Yeah And at the time, wow. So hold on. I got to pause you there for a second. So one of the biggest stories, biggest names in football, biggest, even if we’re just talking from the news side of things, like huge story, like him leaving the league, all that huge. And now you’re crashing the book or not trying not to trying not to, but you’re like, man, that’s, I just have, I have to take a breath on that one.
Mark, that’s a lot. Well, I mean, it gets better. It’s worth work. You know, I’m pressing and every day I’m thinking I need to, I need to get home to start writing. But then interestingly, every day, it seemed like there was a, a new standoff because it was inconvenient to me. Like, what, where are these people creating news here?
Don’t they know I got a book to write? I was like at the, at the office till eight or nine or 10, and then I’d go home and stay up all night. And I had a new baby at home. My son Kirkland had been born. I’d come home. I’d be typing. Kirkland would be, you know, asleep next to me. And then when he would, when he would cry, it would kind of stir me.
And I was like, Oh, it’s, it’s two or three in the morning. So I’d give him a bottle or change him or whatever, keep writing, maybe grab some sleep. And I did that for about two, two and a half weeks, you know, to get the book done. So the process itself was kind of tough. Because I wasn’t in a situation where I could take off a lot of time and do that.
So I was working and then working all night and I’m, I’m guessing now it was kind of fortuitous that I had to rush through the book and get it done that way. Rather than take off, I think there was some there was some diamonds created from all that pressure. Absolutely. And I think this is not really what you want to do, but sometimes you do your best work.
Yeah. Under that kind of pressure. Yeah. And having been his friend since we started school, there was a lot that I knew about, so I was probably the right person at the right time to do this project for him. Yeah. Yeah, it’s amazing the way sometimes I, I feel that God just puts these things in place. Like God has plans for us that we don’t, we don’t know.
Like sometimes I, I, funniest thing I like to do is just laugh at myself like, okay, Adam, you’re making another plan. Let’s see what God thinks, because like, it’s so interesting. Yeah, we plan God laughs. Exactly. It’s so interesting because I see this and I’m like, if you, when you read the book, I, when I read the first one, like I would have never known that.
Like, I, I knew a little piece of it just because I, you know, I spoke to Hillary about it and you talked to her a little bit, but I didn’t know the full story. Now that I’m hearing it, I’m like, with all of the layers, I’m like, I would have never known a million years, but then, but then because it’s a great book, number one, but then because you’re, you’re in each other’s lives, and you’re friends, and you understood, like, you were the only person, for a, for a ghostwriter, or for somebody that didn’t know Barry to do that, and for him to trust that person enough, or just for any, any author, any person, to be able to open enough there’s a relationship that’s formed with anybody that’s helping you write a book.
So that, that process that you were able to do was based off of, you know, X amount of years of relations since grade school. But for an outside, like ghostwriter to do that, we’re talking a two year process that you were able to do because you had some of the backstory, you were there, you lived it. Yeah.
And then everything that we laughed about, everything that we talked about, everything that we were serious about you know became, you know, fodder for the book. But I, I still feel very honored because you said something that made me think, I feel really honored that he trusted me to write about it.
You know, I write, I’ve always written, but when I thought about, you know asking someone to write about me, it put me in his shoes. And I was thinking it would take a lot of trust and for something like that to, to happen or for someone to ask you to do something like that. And I feel very honored.
That, that he trusted me in that way. So now we so fast forward, you know, some years and at some point you get a, you get a call, you get a knock. I’m guessing it was JB. It might’ve been Barry. I don’t know, but somebody’s knocking on your door and they’re like, Hey, you know, there’s going to be a movie, you know, there’s going to be a, you know, the book that we did, we want to, we want to, we want to revamp that.
What, what, what was your I guess first tell me the story. How’d you, how’d you hear about the, let’s just say the relaunch. Like, how’d you hear about that one? Who broke the news? It was JB, you were right. I called it. Yeah, he’s he’s the center. And you know, he serves the drink. But he had mentioned the book, and he had mentioned the project, and there was a part of me that felt like You know, I’m glad because you know, if you watch the documentary and you read the book, you come away with the sense of how, how amazing Barry was, is, or how he was as a player, right?
I mean I still haven’t seen anybody That compares to him. Yeah in the league But what I felt like I didn’t necessarily capture in the book as well as I’d wanted was what kind of person he is However great you think he is as a running back. Yeah you’d have to Increase that by a factor of 10 when you’re talking about him And his character and the kind of person he is and his generosity.
There’s also this character about him. And one of the things I respect about him most is that here’s this big star who has resisted being caricatured. Here’s a big star. who really understands, maybe better than most anyone, what it means to actually be free and to live as a free person. So sometimes if, if you have all these opportunities in front of them and you start grabbing at all these opportunities, pretty soon you’re, you’re indebted to all those things and you’ve lost all of your freedom.
And the fact that he has remained so grounded, So approachable is really a testament to his character. Yeah. So let’s start with the I want to start with the, the, the movie side of things, and then we’ll move into the next version of the book and kind of talk about that process, but the, the movie, like what was your reaction the first time you saw it?
Like, what was your, what were your initial thoughts? I was really moved by it which I, I hadn’t really expected. Cause you knew, yeah, I’m thinking cause you knew him, you know him, you know the story, you lived it. So, wow, that’s amazing. Go ahead, please. But you know, I had a good friend once and this is the best way I can explain this, but I had a good friend once who, he was a teacher he was like mid, late career as a teacher and I was really young as a As a reporter, I was living and working in Louisville, Kentucky, and he told me that every year in the fall, he would read.
The autobiography of Malcolm X and that reading it now is much different for him than it was when he was a young person. Right? If you look at who Barry was, if you look at his journey, Before and then you, you, you look now you just see different things and I, I watching it and watching some of the interviews and seeing some of the interview interviews for the first time, I was really struck like there was a point in the, in the film where Dan Patrick was actually in Wichita, and he had spent the day looking for Barry.
And he was clearly frustrated that was after draft. Was it? Is that that one? Yep. I remember And you know you you could tell that he was you know, you’re a media guy So i’m a media guy so when I saw that I could I saw that and I the first thing I thought was Wow, like he’s like dan must be thinking.
What is this kid doing? Like how do I not like does he not know that? I need to interview him. He was just drafted number one of the Lions. Like this is a big story. Like, or even trying to attribute it to Barry being shy. And that’s the part that struck me. So you know, he calls Barry shy. And Larry says, I’m not shy.
Yeah. . He said, I’m not shy. He is like but you’re gonna have to respect me. Yeah. As, as the person that I am and that there are boundaries that I need everybody to respect if you’re gonna respect me. And I, and I saw that, that kind of pushback. And I didn’t, I didn’t remember seeing that, that interview, but it was striking.
Remember when I was saying earlier, this was someone that, that resisted being caricatured. That’s, that’s one of the things that I was referencing. Oh, he’s, you know, he’s shy, he’s bashful and, and you and I both know being me, many of people that narratives are, are incredibly powerful. In fact, narratives can be more powerful than the actual truth.
Yeah, because people will discard facts that interrupt narratives. But what he was doing was he was resisting this kind of this this kind of aw shucks kind of Kansas hay seed. It was like, no, you need to respect me as a, as a person. Yeah. And there, and I’ll make the decision what is important to me and what I think, you know, I need to do to accommodate you.
And I just, I thought, I thought that really spoke. you know, to his character and you know what he was feeling. I talked about, you know, the past in the beginning, like that, that experience took me kind of old circle because during Barry’s Heisman season we were talking on the phone. He was in Stillwater, I was in Lawrence and he was like Every day when I leave the field, there’s someone new there.
Someone wants me to sign with them. Someone wants me to do a commercial. Someone wants something from me. There’s a reporter who wants to talk to me and he says, I’m sick of it, man. He said, do you think you could get away and come down and hang for a couple of days? So I left Woolworths and I went down there and just kind of hung out with him.
And then I wrote a story for the Wichita paper when I was still a student. You, but I got the sense then. That he was just trying to figure out how am I going to navigate this world? And he just wanted his friend there. And I felt like we’d done that again with this project. Yeah. There were. I think he just wanted to be understood.
I don’t think he necessarily needed this project, but I think that he wanted to be understood. And what I thought was so wonderful about him, what people have commented on was the genius of Paul Minovsky too, in that piece with Barry’s sons. Yeah. I just thought that was, that’s what really got to me.
It brought it full circle. And then since you were there, from what they have in the book. I mean, that. That, that moment really had to move you. Yeah. It brought a full circle. And since you were there, even just to see him like grow up. Right. So now you see them as, you know, men on the screen and just like, I was like, wow, to see it from your eyes.
Who’s watching like, and been a part of all of that. I’m like, wow. And then to, and then to bring it from the from where he started when he left to now ending it that way. In that conversation, it was like, wow. I thought one of the things that I thought was was great and, and I, and what I learned after, you know, being part of the book, the process, all reading it.
I mean, knowing, I, I knew him as a fan, of course, and you, you may or may not know this, but I’m from Detroit, so I grew up watching him. So no, born and raised. I’m from Detroit. Detroit, so right there, southwest Detroit. So. Born and raised, watched him. And I was of that age where we thought he, I mean, I was like, I think he’s a superhero.
Like, that’s what we thought every kid on the playground, everything else. Like, I don’t think he might be an alien. Did you see what he did? How come we can’t run like that? Like, I don’t know. So I was that age, like. How did you feel when he retired? I was still pretty young. So I would say that I felt I didn’t have like enough informed opinion other than being like just sad.
Like, oh man, I want, I don’t get to see him anymore. Like this isn’t like, you know, what? And I know, I remember, I remember the adults around me being like really mad. I do remember that feeling. As the adults around me being like really mad, the hardcore, hardcore. Core fans. I’m still young. I’m still just trying to run around and grab a card and, you know, have some fun.
But so for me, it was just like I knew they were not too happy about that, but I grew up with it and I, and as I got older, I knew the story more, but in working on this project, one word that I just couldn’t even describe was consistency. Like I, I couldn’t understand still very well. And I don’t know if he knew at the time or not, or if it’s one of those things, as you grow up older as a man and you look back at your life and you look at some decisions you made.
But like, when I think about walking away from records and things like that, he was making those decisions in high school, maybe even before that, who knows? And it’s like. I think about myself because naturally, when you see something like this and you’re like in high school, could I have walked away from a record and be like, no, let the younger kids play?
Like, let, let the young guys come. We already won the game. Like, it’s okay. And to be that consistent though, throughout your career and then get to the biggest stage with the biggest records and still do it. And just to have that consistency and character, I thought that, yeah. I’m very happy that he did the movie.
Like I, like you said, he probably didn’t need it, but I’m glad he did it because what he did is, which is characteristic, at least of what I know of based on the work that I’ve done on the book is that he controlled his narrative and that he was consistent. Like he knew that at some point somebody was going to do something and they were, it was going to be whatever they wanted to do about them.
And, and for whatever reason, this project came together and now he encapsulated the way it should be with his input and with the truth of the story. But that consistency blew me away. I’m like high school, when I’ve made that decision in college, what I, today, would I make that decision? No, I don’t think I could have did it.
I had to be like, what, nine yards or however much, like, depending on which record it was, like, it was phenomenal. I couldn’t, I couldn’t believe that. That’s a lot of maturity, but it was a you know, the, the deeper message in the book, and I think it comes through in the film as well, which I have found, you know, fascinating.
I was talking to a family member who, you know, particularly insightful, who’s making the point that if you read Barry’s story, Barry is telling you, It is okay to leave any situation that is not serving you and you can leave unapologetically. It may cost you, you know, there I, when I visited after his retirement, we were at the mall and we were on the lower level.
People were shouting down at him from the upper level while, you know, angrily about him. But what he was sharing is that, you know, if a situation is not right for you, it’s okay to leave. And I just thought that was really insightful. And I thought that was powerful and it really speaks to. His character and then just having sensational parents.
I mean, sensational people, incredible people. You know, he’s really a reflection of them both in a lot of ways. But I think what you see is someone who really represents his family and the culture in that family and the spirituality in that family. Very well. Very well, let’s talk about the, the re-release and the most recent version of his autobiography.
So bye bye Barry. So a lot I, I interviewed Hillary about this one. I know you worked hand in hand with lemme say I’m a Hillary fan. . I’m a Hillary fan. Hey, I don’t big Hillary fan. I mean, as difficult as that, that first portion was, you know, writing the book the first time Hillary made it a lot easier, you know, with us working together.
She’s a journalist too, so like, we were kind of fellow tribes people. And I think we liked working with each other because we just kind of had a sense for the, for the common language, the common goal. You know, she’s a pro and she made the process a lot better. In fact what I, what I have said for years about my writing, like I’ll write something and I’ll read it and I won’t like it and then I’ll pick it up years later and say, well, it’s not bad.
Yeah. You’re like, I did that. Yeah. It’s like writing is difficult if you’re doing it well, and if you’re doing it the right way, it’s, it is difficult. Yeah, it’s sort of like when people talk about golf being a good walk, spoiled, you know what I mean? Oh, yeah, you know, it’s, it’s, that’s, that’s tough. To do.
But when you have someone like Hillary helping it just, it, it went very smoothly. And as I read things again, I was like, you know, that’s not bad. I’ve always been so self critical, but when I read it, I saw it’s not bad. That’s pretty good. How, how fun was it to see some of the, like, to, to also just rehash the memories, because it, it must’ve been like, cause now you had to go through the book again with the, you know, fine tooth comb, you had to think about what was relevant, what didn’t, what changes were made, what things just didn’t necessarily apply, like what pictures to include, like, was that process fun for you?
Some of, some of it was, some of it was a little tense because, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re scrambling to get, you know, certain information, but the pictures, you know, pictures are like. Time machines. Yeah. You look at ’em the right way. All the memories. I, I I, good memories. You know, playing football in high school.
Mm-Hmm. I was such a good football player in high school that, you know when I was thinking about trying to play small college ball. Mm-Hmm. A really wise person, said son. The best position for you is in a newsroom at a desk. Yeah, , not football. It, it, it brought back just a, a lot of great memories.
And, and, and frankly it hardly seems like 20 years has passed, but it has. Yeah. It’s amazing. When I was looking at that, I was trying to, I was trying to think of it through your eyes or through Barry’s eyes, and to see it, like come up and then to see the, the refreshed content and even just the picture section in the back.
So for everybody that hasn’t picked up a copy of the book yet, just to give you kind of a feel for it, in the back section, there’s some expanded chapters, including a bunch of pictures and what I think I like the most about the book versus the movie. I love the movie too. I’m not saying one’s better than the other, but what I love about the book is because in any book you have more room where the narrative in the movie is definitely about, you know, the, the, his the, football career.
I felt like when I went through the book now I got to know Barry like as a person or get to feel like I know him as a person and like his, some of his ideals, some of his family, even just the, the, the family photos, all the other things like that’s what the book did to me. It just kind of brought it all like full circle and just humanize the story to me.
We added a feature about Mrs. Sanders vacation Bible school. And you know, all of us in the community used to go I had a cousin who lived two doors down from me, you know, she and her sisters were more like my sisters than my cousins. But you know, talking to her about, you know, all the years they were there there was one kid who used to come all the time and he was like mischievous and unruly.
And then for him to show up at the reunion to announce that, you know, he is now a pastor. and how you know, going to the vacation Bible school, you know, touched him. And I, I’m guessing that that meant a lot to Mrs. Sanders in particular, but being able to add that feature and, and a few other things, you know, here and there throughout the book, if you had it before, as you said, if you had the first version, this is, this is very different in, in a lot of ways in terms of all the pictures content that we’ve added to this one.
Yeah, I loved it. And I and when I looked at it and what I what I think was a rare moment and just what even just in books in general is you don’t always get the feeling that when you open that book like you’re kind of almost like in that person’s life. So part of the especially those the way the last chapters were designed because it feels almost like a family album.
With a lot of those pictures that were, it’s almost like you’re sitting, you know, you’re on the sofa and you’re like, Oh, you know, with Mrs. Sanders, like, Oh, let me see the photo album with the kids. Or let’s see what’s going on. Like that’s almost the feel and the flavor I had. And I’m like, man, what a special opportunity to bring that to Barry fans, to readers, and also just family.
And just to encapsulate hopefully the best we can his legacy and, and what, what, what people will read and see many years in the, into the future. When they say, Hey, who was Barry? Yeah. Yeah. And you know, congratulations to you. This was like a, this was quite a project to, to get done. And between you and Hillary and, and others that I’ve met, you know, along the way you made the process very easy for us who were writing and editing.
Well, appreciate that. Well, Mark, I want to talk a little bit about what you’re up to as well. Of course, we talked about the book. We know that, but what else you’re up to present day? So like what’s next? What are you, what are you working on right now? I have a few things cooking here and there, but I’ve been lucky enough through my career to have jobs where I can maybe try and help people socially.
And I work for the American Civil Liberties Union of Kansas. We are campaigning on a number of fronts voting rights here and here in Kansas. We’re fighting voter suppression. We’re also trying to eliminate juvenile fines and fees, you know, in our juvenile justice system. Here in the state, if a child is incarcerated, the state charges that child and the parents.
Basically a fee for being incarcerated that the child has to pay back. If the child has you know a urinalysis that they have to take, they have to pay for that, they have to pay the lab fees, and there are juveniles in this state who are reaching adulthood thousands of dollars in debt. Wow. And we don’t think that’s right.
Kids don’t pay bills. I wish they did. They don’t. Yes. And so we really have no business you know, saddling them with this kind of That’s one of the things that I’m particularly passionate about and what we’re, what we’re focused on at the ACLU. Yeah. And so how, how did you originally get involved with your organization?
Like how, how did, how did it find you or you find it? Well, I I’d always known a little bit about the ACLU and what I learned in school had to do with, you know, how they were always standing up the situations in, in defending free speech. Even when that speech is coming from people who are just terrible and saying terrible things, but, you know, working for the organization taught me that, you know, the organization writ large, not our affiliate, but the national organization is fighting on no fewer than 95, 96 different issue fronts.
And so at the time I met the, our current executive director, I was running the Kansas African American museum. And it was very important to me that the the exhibitions that we had, our community outreach really spoke to us being activist oriented. So what I wanted to do to promote the museum and that cause is to have the executive director of the ACLU debate the district attorney in Wichita, and we were talking about how to get this done when he said, you know, I’m looking for a communications person, you know, and I went to school in this part of the state and thought I would like it and, and moved up here in 2018 as a result of trying to organize that debate, the debate didn’t happen.
Yeah. I think it’s not because Our executive director didn’t want to. I just, I just think it just kind of fell by the wayside as I moved. But yeah, that, that was in 2018. So, wow. Amazing. Well, Mark, I just have to say it’s been great having you on the show. I’m so happy and thrilled to have been able to work with you on this project.
I know I’m going to hear more and more things of you, especially with you, the nonprofit that you’re working with. So look forward to hearing more. That being said, if if somebody is watching this or listening to this, and if they want to follow up and connect with you your organization or, or follow you, follow the journey, what’s the best way for them to do that?
You can, you can always hit me up at LinkedIn. There’s a lot of people find me on LinkedIn. And it’s a good indication of like what I’m up to at the time and what our affiliates up to at the time. Fantastic. So we’ll we’ll put your, put the links and all that good stuff in the show notes so that our audience can just click on them and head right on over.
And speaking of the audience, if this is your first time with Mission Matters or engaging in an episode, we’re all about bringing out business owners, entrepreneurs, executives, and experts and having them share their mission. The reason behind their mission, you know, why do they do what they do? them fired up to get up in the morning and to go out in the world and make a difference.
If that’s the type of content that sounds interesting or fun or exciting to you, we welcome you. Hey, hit that subscribe button because we have many more individuals coming up on the line and we don’t want you to miss a thing. Mark again. It has truly been a pleasure. Thanks so much for coming on the show today.
Yeah. Thanks for having me, man. Good to see you finally.
