Adam Torres and Meggie Palmer discuss the gender pay gap.
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Show Notes:
Negotiating with confidence is a skill that can be learned. In this episode, Adam Torres and Meggie Palmer, Founder & CEO of PepTalkHer, explore how to close the gender pay gap through negotiation along with Meggie’s upcoming speaking engagement at the State of the Woman Conference hosted by Gail Letts. Learn more about how to close the gender pay gap here: https://www.peptalkher.com/paymemore
About PepTalkHer
PepTalkHer runs corporate programming for brands including Salesforce, JP Morgan & LinkedIn. They work in-house with companies to recruit, retain & promote too diverse talent. The PepTalkHer App launched to global acclaim at an event with Vogue in 2019. It was featured by Apple around the world and has helped 60,000 + users negotiate a raise.
The App gives you a career pep talk when you need it most. It helps you track your career successes to coach users in confidence & negotiation skills.
Full Unedited Transcript
Hey, I’d like to welcome you to another episode of Mission Matters. My name is Adam Torres, and if you’d like to apply to be a guest on the show, just head on over to missionmatters. com and click on be our guest to apply. All right, so today I have Maggie Palmer on the line, and she is the Founder and CEO of Pep Talk Her, and she’s also going to be a speaker at the upcoming State of the Woman Conference that our good friend Gayle Less is putting on with her team.
So, hey, first off, Meggie, just want to say welcome to the show. Thank you so much. I’m delighted to be here. I’m super excited about the conference as well. All right Maggie. So we got a lot to talk about and I think it’s a, I mean, a great topic overall. So what, what can we do to really help close the gender pay gap for good?
And I’ll be giving some information so that our, our listeners and viewers can, can follow up afterwards and connect with your brand overall. But just to get us kicked off here, I mean, what got you excited and interested in this concept of really closing the pay gap? Like where’d that start for you?
Right, so I spent 15 years as a correspondent. I’m Australian originally, hence my accent. So I was a journalist in Australia and then at the BBC World in London, and then I was traveling all around the world for different networks, and I found out at one point that I was actually getting paid less than the men that I sat next to in the newsrooms.
I was kind of shocked because I was naive. I didn’t even know that this was a thing, but for folks listening, on average women are actually paid at least 20 percent less. Then they’re male colleagues for the same job. And by the way, like two, zero, wow, two, zero, 20%. And for women of color, it’s actually significantly worse.
And so that sucks. But when you actually add it up, we’re talking about hundreds of thousands of dollars, right? So ostensibly women are losing four, 500, 000 over the course of their career, purely because of the unconscious bias that exists in terms of, of how women are treated in the workplace in terms of their pay.
So. Okay. I had that experience. I was kind of really frustrated candidly, and I wanted to try and figure out how to do something about it. And so I founded my company, Pep Talker. We built an app to help folks track their successes and be able to advocate for themselves. That’s where the story started.
Where’d the name come from? Love the name, love the brandy, Pet Talker. Where’d that come from? Was that? Well, I mean, it’s kind of literal, literal, right? Like we’re trying to, like, I mean, listen, ideally I wouldn’t have a job. I hope that I’m unemployed one day because I hope that the gender pay gap is like, you know, a story that you hear from the olden days.
And we know that like, to solve for this problem, it’s going to take legislation. It’s going to take impetus from business. And in the meantime, while we’re waiting for those levers to change, which the United nations is telling us is going to take almost 200 years at the current rate of change we’re really about helping the individual at the grassroots level.
So if your listeners are like, Oh my gosh, I get paid less or my daughter gets paid less on my best. Friend is totally not paid what she’s worth. The folks who are telling those stories, we want to be able to help them right now. And so the way we do that is through a pep talk. And then through, we have a bunch of free resources on our Instagram and our website and, and we run coaching and courses and stuff like that to support folks to sort of, you know, take the steps now to change their situation.
And we hope that the rising tide will lift all boats in the longterm. As I say, while we’re waiting for the legislation to kind of catch up. So first off amazing mission and and that 200 year mark, I mean, wow, that’s that’s a task, but what, what I love, and this is, I get this from my good friend, Aaron Alejandra, who’s host of growing our future podcast.
And he says, it’s all about, and I’m going to paraphrase and butcher his saying, but it’s all about you know, planting trees of which the, the shade you’ll never stand under. And that’s what we’re doing. And that’s. The thought process behind it is really thinking forward for even future generations. So 200 year mark.
I mean, I mean, technically speaking, Maggie, I hope AI Adam is still here doing an interview. Maybe I don’t know. Too long gone. We, we can’t rule anything out these days, you know, technology. But I love that. I love that sentiment of, yeah, because it’s, it’s like, what can we do now? And I think, you know, when, when this happened to me, I was really upset.
I was very upset. I was angry, whatever. And again, I’m sure that sadly, a lot of your listeners have had a similar experience. Maybe they got paid less. Maybe they got sacked while pregnant. Maybe, maybe their partner got laid off after returning from parental leave. Like, We hear these stories every day and they suck.
Like, let’s just be clear. They shouldn’t happen. And yet they do. And so given that they are happening, like what steps can you and I and all of your listeners take today so that there’s a 1 percent change, right? and I wallowed for sure for a couple of weeks. And then I was like, you know what? I can either spiral downhill and keep wallowing, or I can try and do something so that it doesn’t happen to the next Maggie, right, so that the next folks in the newsroom are treated with respect, are paid fairly when, when they ask, you know, for an explanation.
And so I would say to your listeners, like, it’s fine to be angry. frustrated because it’s wrong. In most cases, it’s illegal and yet it still happens. And so I would challenge you all to say like, okay, what can you do today? How can we plant those trees to your point? How can we start to create that shade that the next generation can really benefit from?
Because I think that’s, that’s a way that we can channel our frustration into good, you know, and into those, those positive ripple effects we want to see in the world. let’s get some tools in, in the mix here, because we definitely want people to have some, they got the concept, they got the ideas, let’s talk about negotiation, like, like, how does this, give me, give me some tools here to work on, and like, like, what can people do?
Right, so one of the things that I always say to people is like, let me ask you a question. Okay, so do you know what you had for dinner last Tuesday? Oh, no way. I don’t know what I had for dinner last night. Oh, wait a minute. I do. I had a little bit of pizza. I had something. I kind of remember. Okay. Not had lunch.
What are you talking about, Megan? Right. I’m like ten podcast episodes in. Yeah, I hear you. So, so let’s talk about like dinner four weeks ago or dinner four months ago. Not happening. Yeah, right. Because you’ve got a life, you’ve got Netflix to watch, you’ve got friends to hang out with, you know, and so our brains actually are fickle creatures.
And so if we think about it from a work context, if we don’t know what we had for dinner last week, how can we be expected to remember? The success we had at work last week, or the amazing email that an executive sent us three months ago, or the awesome project that you completed six months ago, like you’re never going to remember all of that because you know, you’ve moved on and you’re onto the next to do list.
And so one of the things I say to people, like something that you can do literally today is start to track your successes and be your own hype gal, you know, and so that’s one of the reasons why we built the pep talk her app, which is totally free, by the way, it’s part of our impact work, it’s on all of the app stores.
And the app is like a brag book, you know, it’s meant to be your hype file. It’s meant to be that place where you keep all those wins. So you organize an event, you take a photo, you upload it, it’s there forever. You get a great email from your boss, screenshot, upload it, away you go. You increase the What is the What’s a brag book?
Because you’re adding to my lexicon here and I love it. I’m a sucker for alliteration. This is the first time I ever heard a brag book. I don’t know. Maybe I’m not The brag book, the hype file. What is that? The hype file. The hype file. Well, it’s kind of like, you know, like a Fitbit that tracks all of your exercise.
Oh, you’re speaking my language. I have one more on my wrist right now as we speak with zero minutes of active. Okay, go ahead. So it’s, it’s the Apple watch, it’s the Fitbit, it’s the Wook, whatever you’ve got, but it’s for your career. So instead of tracking your exercise, your sleep, your, your steps, it tracks your work wins.
Oh, wow. Yeah, so that’s what we call like, you know, like a brag book, a hype file, you know, a pep talk list, whatever. And then also, by the way, if you’ve got a big interview or a big presentation and you’re sitting there and you’re like, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, I’m so nervous. Like, oh my goodness, this is really scary.
Obviously we’re going to take a couple of breaths. We’re going to open up the app and you’re going to see 10, 20, 40 things listed there that are kind of amazing. And what that does is it tricks our brain instead of focusing on the negatives and the stress all of a sudden Y’all are going to be focusing on that’s right.
I did get that awesome email. Oh my gosh Yes, I did do that. I did close that deal. I did help that Student, whatever the case may be for your industry, you know, like those metrics, those pieces of successes, like how you overcome failures, whatever success looks like for you at work, I need you to start writing that down.
Now, I know that’s a bit tedious and it’s gonna take you 10 or 30 seconds. I get it. But if you do that, 10 or 30 seconds, come on, for effective change, it’s the little things that add up over time. Amazing. Go ahead. I couldn’t let you get away with the 10 or 30 seconds. Everyone do it. All right. No, go ahead.
We’re just gonna do it. We’re gonna write it down. We’re gonna be like, you know what? I sent three emails today, or you know what, I closed the deal, or you know what, I supported my team today in this way, I had this great meeting, and I, I helped someone who was feeling down, we’re just going to write it down, and if you do that once a week, even if you take a vacation, at the end of the year, you’ve got 40, 50 things written down, so that That changes our brain chemistry, right?
Because our brains are actually, from a neuroscience perspective, our brains are hardwired for negativity. So we, you know, you have a bad day, you kind of wallow for ages, right? You get a bad meeting, ugh, it’s kind of hard to jump out of the funk. And so, when we can trick our brain and start to really focus on those positives, all of a sudden the chemistry changes, right?
And so, one of the simplest things that I would say to folks listening, is like, just once a week. That’s it. Just celebrate your success once a week, track it in the app, and that’s all you’ve got to do. Because then, when it’s performance review time, when a recruiter messages you, when you’re going for a job interview, you’re not starting from scratch.
You’ve got a massive list. And you’re like, well, this is relevant. This isn’t. This is relevant. I could use this example. Oh, my gosh. I forgot about that. You know, it kind of jogs your memory. It gives you that confidence and it gives you those tangible things to sell yourself Oh, my gosh. So you just reminded me. So I did this. It’s big. I can’t say spring cleaning. It’s winter cleaning. I don’t know. I just did this whole big old cleaning recently. And when I did, I found this folder I had, I haven’t, I mean, I haven’t been in corporate America for going on eight years now, but when I was, I worked for some really good companies and they like, like Charles Schwab, the Vanguard group.
I mean, they had amazing compensation, they had amazing like awards and they reward their employees very well. And and I’d always worked for corporate companies like that. So I didn’t have, I didn’t call it a brag book or something else like that, but I used it exactly the way you’re saying it was just this folder that had every single award, accommodation, like every single thing.
And I’m telling you, even to this day, I looked at it and I’m like, it could be further from what I’m doing or what matters in my day to day, but made me feel good. It rewired the way I was thinking at that moment, and then it actually also got me to start to think about how I was interacting with our team.
Right. And I was thinking about some of the things that made me feel good and appreciated and seen. And I’m like, well, why, why am I not? These aren’t huge things, but they mean a lot long term. Look at me. I’m, you know, 15 years later looking at, looking at an award, having an emotion. So how nice would it be?
For us as leaders out there that are listening to this to think about how we can, you know, introduce this app, introduce this concept to our culture and our organization. Exactly, exactly. And, and you know, our careers are long and we forget really cool stuff that we did as an intern or five years in.
And as you say, it’s like that warm and fuzzy feeling when you look back and you’re like, Hey, I had a really interesting career. You know, it’s not what I’m doing now and it’s very different, but that’s kind of nice because our brain needs those touch points to remember. Because otherwise what happens is it looks for those negative things, as I said.
And so we want to really set ourselves up to success and create these positive intentions and these positive moments for the brain to focus instead. So I think that’s the single biggest thing that folks can do. And the other thing is also like surround yourself with people who are going to celebrate with you, surround yourself with people who can keep you accountable, who can be like, Hey, you’re spiraling, jump into the pep talker app.
Tell me what happened last month. Tell me what you did in December. Like, let’s focus on that because. You don’t have to do this alone, you know, if you get laid off, if you get overlooked for a promotion, like you’re not alone, like there are, I would say, like, you know, probably 20, 30 percent of the people listening to this podcast have had something similar happen, no doubt in the last few months, you know, like everyone’s going through something and so sharing that with other folks and allowing yourself to be supported and celebrated is a really powerful thing as well.
Speaking of forgetting things that we are accommodated for, Maggie, I know you said you’re from Australia, so I don’t, I’m, I don’t know if you know this cartoon or not. Do you know who the Flintstones are? Of course! Of course, I know they’re huge, but I don’t want to assume, I don’t want to assume, I’m sorry, just double checking, I don’t know.
So there was this character in the Flintstone called Captain Caveman. He was in the care. He was just this ridiculous character, but my very first award out of college, I still remember, and you just sparked that memory. I haven’t thought of this in 20 some years easily was the Captain Caveman sales award.
And I remember it and it was a silly award and they gave you this thing and there’s this Flintstone character on it, but you just reminded me and I’m thinking to myself, man, what if I was on an app like what you’ve developed with Pet Talk Her and I could look at that memory at other times.
Like I’m not just looking at it right now. Like I haven’t thought of that in 20 years, but honestly, it just made me. Smile and made me feel really good. And I’m like, what if I could go back to that app at any point and look and see some of the previous things that have taken place so that, especially if I’m feeling down or we’re not having a good week or blah, blah, blah, and not enough people are hitting that subscribe button hint to everybody listening, hit the subscribe button.
So I feel, but no, not, not ashamed of that one, Maggie, but seriously, like I’m thinking about it. I’m like the captive cave ad sales of words. So I’m like, wow, what if I had. What you’ve developed throughout my whole career, like how meaningful could that be? And how could, how much more could that help me with, you know, even as a male, my confidence in other things that I’m pursuing.
So whether you’re male or female, I think it’s, I mean, I think it’s an amazing concept. Oh, good. Yeah. No. And it’s, and it’s, yeah, we want to set ourselves up for success in the longterm, you know, because we have. We have seasons in our career, seasons where things are great. And then there’s seasons when things are really tough, you know, and also we can learn from those things too.
Right. So it’s, it’s interesting. We have folks that, that use the pep talk or app who are in sales or in marketing and tech. And then we also have, interestingly, a lot of entrepreneurs or solopreneurs because like some, sometimes things can be lonely and you don’t always have people to celebrate with.
And so at the very least you can celebrate with yourself in the app and get those reminders. And it’s super easy. You press a button and it’ll email you a PDF or a word doc or whatever. To access that. So that’s the biggest thing. And then find yourself a cheerleader. Like, hopefully you have a friend in your life who loved, trusts, and respects you.
And I would just say, like, don’t be shy to reach out to them when you’re having a bad day and when you’re having a good one and then lean on them, you know, in those moments and, and do practice negotiations. That’s the other thing is I don’t want you to be doing your first negotiation in the salary conversation.
I want you to be, how do we, how do we practice? Give me some of that. I like that idea. How do we practice? Right. Cause, cause, you know, he’s the other thing we can trick our brain. So let’s say you’re going in and you want to ask your boss for an extra 10, 000. Let’s just say that as a round number. would prefer great content, but if my employees all start like sending me emails right now, like, Oh, that was my, your best episode of the year, Adam.
I’m not going to be, I’m joking. Go ahead. Finish, please. Yeah, you’re like, oh, I’m going to have to censor this episode. No, this is amazing and it’s worth it. Go ahead, please. So the thing is, like, you don’t want to say, because sometimes, you know, sometimes people get nervous when they negotiate, because we all have our baggage around negotiation.
Like for me, I remember the first time I started negotiating, quote unquote, was with my dad when I was like 15 and always grounded. So I was like trying to get access to go to the cool parties, but I wasn’t allowed to because I was too naughty. So like. I have this concept that negotiation is like aggressive and it’s combative and it’s a fight, but actually I had to do a lot of rewiring around that.
Really, negotiation, if you boil it down, is a conversation. That’s it. And if you’re introverted or if you’re extroverted, everyone knows how to have a conversation, right? Like, everyone can communicate in some capacity. So if you can communicate in some capacity, you can absolutely negotiate. Right? So that’s the first reframe I want to give everyone.
And then the other thing is to say is that, like, Do a practice. Get out your iPhone, get out your Android, whatever, and just, just set it up and record yourself pretending to ask your boss. And then watch that back. And it’s going to feel really awkward, but you’re going to notice stuff. Are you blushing?
Are you looking nervous? And then I want you to record it again. And I want you to pretend that you’re asking as though you’re Oprah. Like let’s channel a bit of Oprah’s confidence and then watch that video back and see how that looks and what you’ll notice is you can actually channel other people’s confidence and you can use that to kind of help you if you’re feeling nervous, you can channel whoever you like, whoever you admire, maybe it’s a boss, maybe it’s a family member or a friend, someone famous on TV channel their energy and ask in a way that you think they would ask.
And see what happens, you know, and as I say, do those practice conversations with a friend as well. Get them to role play being your boss, because what you’re doing in that experience is you’re tricking your brain because your brain’s like, Oh yeah, I’ve already asked for 10, 000 before. I’ve said that the world didn’t stop spinning.
I survived. And so then that means when you go into the real deal. Yeah. Your brain will be like, yeah, I can do this. I’ve already done this time. So we sort of move from like nervous, like reptile energy, reptile brain into more like confidence, like leaning forward, assertive confidence and energy when we’re having that negotiation.
Now, Meggie, I don’t know if this is set, so if it’s not, you can, you can correct me, but the State of the Woman Conference, do you have any idea what your I know it’s still, there’s still some time before it happens. Do you, do you know what you’re going to be speaking on yet, or your content? Look, I can’t give too much away because we want there to be some surprise, but it’s going to be a four step.
Come on, I’m in, I’m in this. I gotta, I gotta try it. I want people to go, but yeah, so listen, it’s really, it’s about, it’s very practical. So I would say to people, like everything that I teach on stage is like super practical. You’re going to want to bring your notepad. You’re going to have stuff that you’re going to put into practice that day, super tangible.
And it’s all about like. Understanding your strength and your values. And by the way, what you can bring to the table is very different from me. I can’t compete with you in the workforce and vice versa, because all of us have our own, you know, secret sauce. So we’re going to be leaning into that, figuring out what makes you unique.
We’re going to figure out how you best So that firstly you get paid really well, but also you kind of love your job. Like, I don’t think we need to live in this world anymore where it’s sort of like a drudgery to get up and go to work. I’m very big on like helping folks find their alignment. So we’re going to focus on that and then we’re going to really work.
We’re going to do some inner work to like understanding, like who you want to be in the longterm and what you want your life and work to look like and how we can kind of navigate towards that confidently. So I’m really excited. Great stuff. Well, Maggie, just want to say thank you for coming on the show today.
Really appreciate it. Tell us what’s going on with the State of the Women Conference. And of course, pep talker for anybody that’s watching or listening to this, you can check out Maggie’s work and her team over at peptalkher, that’s P E P T A L K H E R dot com forward slash pay me more. super simple to remember who doesn’t want to get paid more.
So again, peptalkher. com forward slash pay me more. And then if you want to check them out on social media, it’s at peptalkher. I’m looking at it on Instagram. Great Instagram page. Great content there. And I think over 20, 000 followers. So great work there. And for the first time listeners, I know you heard me drop it earlier in the conversation, but if you haven’t hit that subscribe button, I’m gonna, like, now is your personal customized invitation just to you and only you that’s listening to this right now.
Hit that subscribe button, and if you’re feeling really friendly, I’m not mad if you hit a review or, and if you just leave one of those nice reviews, I promise I won’t be mad. I’ll be so thrilled. Maggie, I really appreciate you coming on the show, and this really has been fun, so thank you. It’s such a pleasure.
I’m so excited to stay in touch with you all. Thanks so much.
