Adam Torres and Will Pearson discuss the future of podcasting.
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Show Notes:
Podcasting is exploding with listenership up year over year. In this episode, Adam Torres and Will Pearson, President at iHeartPodcasts, explore the past, present and future of podcasting.
About iHeartPodcasts
iHeartPodcasts is the #1 podcast publisher globally, with more hit shows in more categories than any other podcaster. With a growing slate of shows like Stuff You Should Know, Drama Queens, Questlove Supreme, The Laverne Cox Show and Noble Blood, as well as a rapidly growing roster of shows from its on-air talent like The Breakfast Club – with Charlamagne Tha God, Angela Yee and DJ Envy – Bobby Bones and Colin Cowherd, iHeartPodcasts is the destination for the hottest creators.
Full Unedited Transcript
Hey, I’d like to welcome you to another episode of Mission Matters. My name is Adam Torres, and if you’d like to apply to be a guest in the show, just head on over to MissionMatters. com and click on Be Our Guest to Apply. Alright, so I have a very special episode today. I have Will Pearson on the line.
He’s president over at iHeartMedia. Podcast, and we’re going to get and pick his brain on podcasting, where we’re at in podcasting. What’s the potential for podcasting in the future? I mean, a totally unique vantage point, in my opinion, being with a president over at I heart podcast, because that’s a high vantage point leaders in podcasting.
So we’ll, first off, just want to say welcome to the show. Thanks Adam. I really been looking forward to the conversation. All right, well, it’s fun to have you on this show and we got a lot to cover, but we start every episode with what we like to call our Mission Matters Minute. So, Will, at Mission Matters, our aim is to amplify stories for entrepreneurs, executives, and experts.
That’s our mission. Will, what mission matters to you? the mission I think that matters most to me is helping as many people as we can find joy. And that in many, many different ways, whether that’s through family, we’ve got our families very close to the autism community, for example. So many members of our family are heavily involved in a few different autism related organizations that spend as much time as they can helping those in the autism community.
Find support, find joy. We do the same thing with organizations in the lgbtq community the same thing with organizations and wish granting organizations that help kids sort of realize dreams when they may be in difficult Situations medically or health wise. And so I think, we can all go through life, doing what we can to help others find joy, we certainly find that in ourselves.
Amazing. Love bringing mission based individuals on the line to share, you know, why they do, what motivates them, what’s drives them and makes them, you know, tick. Cause it’s sometimes easy to see, you know, the outward of what’s going on with people, but love to see the inward too. So thanks for sharing that.
And again, Awesome to have you on. So well, just to get us kicked off here, I did a lot of looking into your background, was excited to have you on the show. You have a unique vantage point. Let’s get into kind of the beginning though. We’re worded like whether it’s podcasting it could be entertainment in general, like, what drew you to this general?
Like, how’d you get here? Yeah, it was an interesting timing for us because I was I was at a company that I had founded in college I guess back in 2001 with a college roommate of mine, and it was called Mental Floss, and it was in the world of trivia, general knowledge, more in the magazine and digital space, and we had sold the company.
And the two of us as founders, we’re, we’re starting to think about, you know, what is the next thing we want to get involved in? And we had been paying attention to this, this space that people were talking about of podcasting. And it had been around for, you know, let’s say seven or eight, nine years of, of people starting to listen to these, but it was still felt like very.
Early day year was approximate, approximate. Yeah. Oh, this was, this was around 2015. I would say that we started thinking about what’s happening in the world of podcasting. So again, for those long time podcast listeners, they’d say, oh, come on. Podcasting was about a decade old by that point. But if we’re all being honest with ourselves, a very small percentage of the U S population was listening to podcast at that point.
And so we looked at it and thought. there’s something really interesting going on here and it feels like this is a category that’s going to grow. When we started having conversations with this company called stuff media, or sometimes more publicly known is how stuff works. And they had been publishing some of the longest running podcast in the general knowledge space shows like stuff you should know, stuff you missed in history class, tech stuff.
Fortunately at some point they learned. Learned that you didn’t have to put the word stuff in every single podcast title. But but there were some just great shows that were building these really loyal audiences. And it was fascinating to us. And we’d wanted to try to jump back into the entrepreneurial space and jump back into a category that felt like it was in its very early stages.
And so we, we started having these conversations with. Stuff media that asked us to come on board and help, you know, see what we could do to spin off the podcast division and see if we could grow it and, and what would happen. And we decided to give it a go. And so the podcast division spun off from the how stuff works website and their other ventures.
And I guess it was about 18. Months later or so we sold this, this company to I heart media and we’re, we’re brought on board to to help run the podcast division at I heart, but that’s, that’s where it came about. Wasn’t exactly something I saw coming, but it’s been a really exciting ride.
So it’s so interesting to me, like when people think, or when podcasting first comes on their radar, especially if you’re a new podcast listener, because it’s been my experience, like for a new podcast listener, once they, it’s like they, they discover this treasure trove of content and they’re like, Oh my gosh, I didn’t know that this existed.
and the loyalty and the real audiences, I’ll give you my bias will not putting this on you, but my company, we put. All of our resources in podcasting. I’ve done over 6, 000 interviews myself. We’ve launched over 150 shows and this is just in the last eight years. So we’re new to this game. and the reason is because unlike I’ll give you my view on this and then I’d love to hear your opinion, but unlike Any other medium to me, I have this different type of connection with hosts, like even as a personal listener.
So for example, Instagram, I like Instagram, not picking on it. So if you’re listening to this, don’t email me. I like Instagram. I love Instagram. Fine. But if you follow me on Instagram, if you give me a little like, okay, great. Then, you know, you got a certain amount of value that took a millisecond, a second, whatever it does.
Right. So. But if somebody like takes the time to listen to content that, we put out and we produce and all this, and you spend a half an hour of your life on listening to an episode and then not just us, but just in general, when I invest that time in shows that I listened to, like there’s a connection there.
So it’s just has a, a different experience, a different feel to me than any other medium. what do you think makes podcasting magic? Like, what do you think? Well, I mean, do want to speak to something else with respect to that. However, I think you make a point that really is worth doubling down on because people do not think about this in the world of social media, in the world of video and so many other spaces.
word force is probably not, too strong of a word, but it is, it is easy to get content in front of people with podcasting. It is so many steps of intentionality to get somebody to listen to a thing. That when somebody is there to listen to it, I mean, if you think about it, you have to be on a podcast platform, you have to decide, I’m interested in this specific show.
You then have to decide, I want to listen to this episode. There’s all these steps that people are very consciously doing a thing. So with that in mind. When somebody is listening to a podcast episode, they want to be there. And if they don’t like it, they won’t come back. And so you’ve got to bring in a new listener.
So when you hear about podcasts that are generating millions of downloads and streams every single month. I mean, that is a loyal fan base. And I think that sort of sort of segues into what I do find most special about this podcast industry. think the word, you know intimate can sometimes be overused a little bit, but it is probably the best way to describe the relationship of.
You know, a podcast listener and this audience. I mean, when they’re listening to you host this podcast, they’re there for you. They’re there because they love hearing you in conversation. They love hearing you talk about things and they’re there for your wisdom and your personality. And that relationship that listeners build with their podcast hosts and the talent that they follow is unlike.
Anything I’ve seen across every single category. And that’s one of the most fun parts of what we do here at iHeart is we get to think about shows really across every single category and podcasting, no matter the category, it is just amazing to watch this bond that forms between the podcast listener and the host.
Will I love that you said the word intimate, because I don’t know if I’ve ever said this on the podcast, but I know I, I say it amongst friends and other things ’cause it doesn’t just come up in natural conversation, but in natural conversation with friends.
I use the word intimate and I say it is the podcasting is the most intimate type of experience you can have. And the reason why is because it’s physical. If you think about the way most people listen, they have earbuds in their ears. And so you’re literally in an orifice and just based off of it being a passive listening experience where, you know, YouTube, okay, you might listen to YouTube sometimes in your earbuds or something.
But normally you’re going to watch it. It might be on a desktop, your TV, something else. So you’re not literally plugged in, but for a podcast listener, like, you’re literally putting that host in your ears when you’re running, when you’re jogging, when you’re doing something else, a lot of listener behavior.
So to me, I feel like that vibration, there is an actual intimate connection over time, like years. If you think about, I can think about some of my cousins, maybe that I don’t talk to every week. you know, if somebody listens, if I listen to a podcast every week, technically speaking, I’m spending more time with that host during my workout than I am with family that I love and that are my blood, like literally.
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. And on that note, there’s two things that have really been. Surprising or interesting to witness happening over the last few years in, podcasting that, sort of speak to that. I think most people assume that podcasts are very much an on the go media, meaning when you’re commuting, when you’re in your car, when you’re out.
And of course there is a good bit of that, but actually over the past few years, there’s been a very real shift. To where now about 70 percent or so, maybe a little bit less of podcast listening is happening at home. People are doing this when they’re cooking dinner. People are doing this when they’re on the Peloton.
People are doing this when they’re actually just sort of winding down and sitting down in the den at night. Am I wrong? Kind of like how TV used to be, like you get home and you just by habit turn on the TV, like let’s just say in another generation when that was the main thing, then you put it on, you’re cooking, whatever.
So you’re inviting those hosts, you know, into your living room because you’re, while you’re listening to it in the background while you’re cooking. And so now it’s like, that’s exactly right. Oh, that’s amazing. That’s exactly right. and so it’s interesting to see this because now visualize what you just described as it happens at home.
So somebody is sitting down on the couch at night before they’re winding down for the evening and instead of turning on the TV, they’re listening to a podcast. It doesn’t get much more intimate than that sort of setting. And what I guess the other thing that has really struck me is. You know, there’s been a lot of focus on the growth of podcasting in terms of the number of people listening.
But I think the thing that really hasn’t been focused on quite enough is how much time people are spending with it. And so even among those, just those who are listening to podcasts, their time spent listening to podcasts, to your point has doubled within the past few years, and it’s just been remarkable to see, see that happening.
So it’s not just more people. It’s more people spending. More time with the medium, which is, which is a fascinating time to be in. Yeah, and I, like to think this and you tell me will because other people sometimes think I’m crazy and this is what I do. So it’s okay. But this is the way I view it.
And you’ve been doing this longer than me. You’ve been in the business longer than me. I’m only eight years in. So I’m a baby. That being said. This is the way I view it. YouTube I mean, give or take on the numbers on this, not holding you or me to these. So anybody listening, I don’t want the emails.
Oh, that’s the wrong number. Whatever. It’s okay. YouTube, 150 million plus channels out there, whatever. Active, not active. Who cares? You Google it. It’s going to come up maybe 150 million. Podcasts at three million. I’m rounding one way or another. Who cares? We don’t need to be exact. My sure. My view is based off of the way that, you know, add dollars are coming to the industry based on increase in technology, based on more hosts of higher calibers, and I just mean no names that celebrities entertainers, other things like that, accessibility because of.
Technology, easier to podcast now to launch a podcast, easier to grow, you know, just all these other things, AI, whatever, we don’t have to go into all that, but this is the question long way to tee it up, hang in there with me. Well, the question for me is what I’m always evangelizing is I want everybody to start a podcast.
I think. I don’t know if it’s going to be five years, 10 years, 20 years. I don’t know. But to think that there’s not going to be over 50 million podcasts, if there’s 150 million plus YouTube channels, I think we’re in like year one or two, if I’m being liberal of YouTube, where you couldn’t even upload a video.
That was more than 10 minutes. Am I crazy? Am I crazy? What would you say? What would you add or whatever? Here’s the thing. we don’t know each other that well, so maybe you’re crazy. I don’t know the answer to that, but I don’t think you’re crazy for this statement. I think, I mean, that’s one of my favorite things about the field of podcasting is We are really getting to that point, although just scratching the surface in a way that people are recognizing podcasts can be used for very specific needs of saying, I’m interested in the following field, and I would love a 12 part series on this very specific thing.
And I think that you’re going to see more and more of that. We get bit of a view into that. I heart owns one of the platforms for. Really more independent podcasters called Spreaker. And it’s very interesting for us to see it as. You know, almost like the development leagues for, for podcasting.
And we see the podcasts that are starting up in this in this space and the number of people coming into it and launching very interesting podcast. And they may ultimately say, you know what, my podcast is for 250 people out there, but 250 people that are very interested in this very specific thing.
I love It just becomes a great form of communication and, way for people to access such interesting knowledge. love it too. And I like that you bring that up, even limited series or other things like that, because there’s all these and what I preach is that, you know, there’s so many people that have so much knowledge in different areas.
And it’s like, unlike, let’s just say, and I’m not saying, you know, influencers, good, bad, or otherwise, I just mean, like, unlike, let’s say an influencer culture on Instagram. Again, I like Instagram, but I’m just saying, like, Where we’re just looking at a particular number. In this case, you get to connect and you get to build communities, but actual communities around even shows and that happens very like in our case, it was organic.
Like I’ve mentioned, you know, I’ve done over 6, 000 interviews plus, and that was not on purpose. Like that wasn’t by design. That was by demand for the community. We just didn’t want to tell our community, like the business leaders and other people, we didn’t want to tell them no. So we ended up like.
Pivoting and building an entire business and infrastructure around serving our community, but that wasn’t intentionally and I see all of these other communities that have built up around podcasts and shows what is like, what does community mean to you in this space or otherwise? Like, that’s where I’m going with it because I’ve just seen it.
And I’m curious from what you’ve seen. Yeah, I mean, I think it can mean a number of different things, but back to this idea of just what a an intimate medium it is, what that creates is not only that strong connection between the host and the, listener. It actually creates this pretty terrific bond among, you know, those listeners of that show.
I’m sure you’ve seen this as well, but when you meet two people that are into the same podcast, the spark that’s in their eyes, when they get a chance to realize this and then talk about it, that connection is really, really strong. It’s fun for us to see it happen across various podcasts, you know, stuff you should know.
Again, one of our oldest shows. Has this community that calls itself the stuff you should know army, which is sort of a funny thing to call itself because it’s a very passive and nerdy group, but it’s I think it’s, that’s part of the reason they enjoy calling it that, but it’s just amazing to watch this bond among them.
And when these shows go and do, you know, live shows in different places and they’re touring, what’s remarkable is the way that. Fans or listeners rather interact with the talent. You can see the bond that they feel that in a lot of ways, they’ll just walk up and start talking to them like they’re their friends because of the nature of that and the same thing among listeners.
And so that community that’s built among these various podcasts and the connection that these listeners feel for each other and among each other is pretty awesome to see, it’s really, sort of touching to watch it in action. Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting to see that and it’s interesting that you say that especially live events and things like that.
I know that you if there’s any you care to bring up, of course, I just whether what events that have passed recently or forward that you’ve worked, that you’re working on, whatever you’d like to, but I just want to just touch on at least the in person like component of podcasting, because know we’ve been doing a little bit more just little by little, like person and like hosting events and things like that.
But I know on a big level, you’re bringing together other communities and providing that platform as well. Do you want to maybe speak on that a little bit? Yeah, this is something that, you know, was starting to grow pre COVID obviously COVID, Put a pause on various things, but it’s been really fun to see The community start to gather again.
Actually just this past weekend just a few days ago in atlanta We had the second annual black effect podcast festival So the black effect is a joint venture between iheart And one of iheart’s top personalities on the radio side charlamagne the god co host of the breakfast club And so this joint venture has launched 30 plus podcast in the space, recognizing a few years ago, the under representation among black listenership and talent in the space, and really trying to address that in a meaningful way.
And so now seeing that a few years later. As this has grown, being able to say, you know what the fans want to be able to gather. The fans want to be able to see the talent up close and personal. The talent want to be able to communicate with each other. And so being on the ground, they’re sort of being able to step back for a second and just watch the joy on these fans faces.
But they’re there for so many different reasons. Some are just there for entertainment purposes. Some are there to meet other people. Some are there for entertainment purposes. Networking purposes. And so it’s, it’s really just fun to see all the various reasons why people may want to be there in person, but just standing there among a few thousand bands of podcasts, these talent, it just, I don’t know, there’s, there’s like in the past, you would have only seen that for like a musician, right?
Like, or like one of your music festivals or something else where you’re like thousands of people come up, but for them to come up for a podcast, like to me, that’s surreal. That’s right. That’s a, that’s a cultural phenomenon. That’s a surreal. it’s really just an amazing thing to see in action.
So, yeah. want to jump around just a little bit here. Because obviously one of the revenue models for podcasting, whether it’s for networks or otherwise, it’s going to be advertising or any media, right? Yeah. What do you think everything that I read trends data otherwise says, you know, more money’s flowing into this inter from the advertising and brand standpoint I’m speaking of specifically.
And it’s pretty sticky like advertisers are otherwise. So not having you call out any specific brand or putting you on the hook for any of that or anything like that, but what do you think makes brands makes it so sticky? cause I didn’t know much about radio in the past, so I’m just curious.
Like, was it, does it have the same stickiness as radio or are they different? Like just anything you want to comment on that. Audio is a very powerful medium and it’s, it’s actually been interesting over the past couple of years to see several ad agencies and other third parties come in and do studies around across several different mediums.
So from audio to social media, to TV, to print, to all the different forms of media and the recall that happens from audio is really, really powerful. And sort of the recognition and the connection that comes from that is. Is actually pretty remarkable to see the science back it up that more than any other medium Audio sticks with people and it makes sense when you tell somebody a story when you communicate a thing verbally The theater of the mind is a very real thing and it brings it to life in their minds And if I say the word home to you You picture A very real thing, but what you picture is completely different than the person sitting next to you.
And it’s interesting to see that in audio. And so that again, back to this idea of that connection between the listener and the host makes it incredibly effective. So when that bond is created, and then the host does an ad read or shares something from an advertiser, It creates that connection that goes through the ads as well.
And so that’s made it really, really effective. And the proof of that is in how the, the medium has grown from the types of advertisers that are coming in. And so if you back up, You know, six or seven years ago, and maybe even longer. The industry that really built podcast advertising and the industry itself was the direct response advertiser.
These are your box meal companies, your mattresses. When you think of all of these advertisers that came along to try to, you know, to get people to to purchase things. The only way they stuck around was if people were actually using those discount codes to go buy the thing. You know, if you want this thing, use the discount code X when you at checkout.
And that became, and you started hearing these same advertisers. Over and over again with the stamps. com and any of the hiring agencies. The reason you were hearing them over and over again is because it was working. And so it was this sort of like well kept secret for a while. And then big brands started realizing.
My gosh, these brands are spending so much money and podcasting and coming back to it, it must be working. And that’s when the brands woke up to it and realized, oh, it’s time for us to jump into the space. So it’s been interesting to watch that, but it’s really proof of just how effective the voice and podcast advertising is.
Wow. That’s amazing. Well, well, I’m going to give you the final word here before we close out. What’s next? I mean, what’s next for you? What’s next for I heart podcasting, like what’s next? You know, as I mentioned before, one of the things that we’re always trying to keep our eyes out for our audiences that feel like are not being served or their needs are not being met and where there’s an opportunity to bring shows into a certain space.
And so it’s no surprise over the past few months. That the country has woken up to the excitement around women’s sports. And, you know, of course the moments around Caitlin Clark and around the South Carolina basketball team and women’s sports, and of course the U S women’s national soccer team, you know, some incredible moments there.
But this has been growing for a while here. Some people think this has just happened out of nowhere. And so we announced last week in partnership, actually with one of those legends in the world of sports, the winningest player in WNBA history. Sue bird is part of a joint venture. Called Deep Blue and we’ve partnered with them to announce that we’ll be launching a slate of sports podcast in the very near future.
So in the second half of this year, you’ll see several shows coming out from us in the world of basketball, in the world of tennis, in the world of soccer, golf, you name it. We are really going to be ramping up what we’re doing in the space. But. That’s what I love about this job is the ability to have a team say, you know what, there’s a very real need in this space.
Let’s jump in and let’s go big and make sure that we’re meeting the needs of the audience. So I think that’s what I’m most excited about in the months ahead. Amazing. And if people want to continue to follow the journey what’s the best way for them to do that? of course. You know, , we distribute our podcasts broadly.
So anywhere people listen to podcasts, they can find them. If people want to see a sampling of some of our specific podcasts, they can go to I heart podcast. com. Check those out, but or go to the iHeart app and check out podcasts there, but there’s so many great shows out there, something for everybody and we’re just excited to continue on this journey.
Amazing. Well, well, thank you so much for your time today. Really appreciate you coming on and giving us the view of what’s happening in podcasting. And I know you didn’t confirm that I wasn’t crazy. I’m not. It’s okay. And I’m glad that at least my idea wasn’t crazy that there could be 50 million, a hundred million podcasts.
Okay. Now I’m in. And to the audience, Hey, thank you for your time today as well. If you haven’t hit that subscribe button, this is yet this is your personal invitation. This is a daily show each and every day. We’re bringing you new, amazing leaders and thought leaders in their fields. And we don’t want you to miss a thing.
So hit that subscribe and we’ll thank you again so much for your time. Hey, thanks Adam. Thanks for what you do. Take care.